This is the action. It pushes back against fascist talking points in the public discourse and makes it harder for fascist to make themselves seem publicly accepted.
And you want to give the state the power to get rid of any group it deems undesirable? Or do you want to break the law to get rid of them yourself? This protest is the sign that the majority will not go along with fascist talking points, it makes clear that those talking points have no space in public discourse. This is how democracy is supposed to work.
And you want to give the state the power to get rid of any group it deems undesirable?
The state already has the power to get rid of any group that seeks to destabilize our democratic system. This is a very central part of our constitution (see article 9, 18, 20 or 21). It’s basically a way to deal with the paradox of tolerance, if you’re not familiar with that concept here’s the wikipedia definition:
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society’s practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
Ultimately, it is within the law to personally get rid of a group that wants to destroy our free and democratic system:
Article 20
[…]
(4) All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order if no other remedy is available.
This is usually interpreted as including physical violence.
I understand your longing for immediate action and I share the emotional need to cut off the snake’s head sooner than later. Those who break the social contract of tolerance for each other should not be protected by it. Unfortunately it is a matter of fact that violence will always spiral out of control.
First you just want to get rid of the fascists. Assume you succeed and don’t get reprimanded by law. Then you know how to get rid of someone and can act on it. What stops you to get to your rivals that want to strip you from your new found power? Chances are real you drift off into dictator mannerisms yourself.
The only way to not become what you try to eliminate is not to use excessive violence to begin with. Use the law. Use intimidating mass demonstrations. Use social pressure by making their views unspeakable again. Be better, stand for your values, organize with like minded folk and don’t play into the stereotype of left groups always splittering into incapable small groups that cannot cooperate and coordinate
You assume that murdering people is somehow addictive. That is not true for sane people. See for example soldiers or self defense situations. The other commenter is right that sane people will stop being violent, once the threat is eliminated. Even some absolute psychos will only kill while it’s acceptable and go back to suppress their desire for violence when it no longer is acceptable by their scociety.
At sone point violence may be the only way to defend freedom and democracy. However, I disagree with the other commenter that the time is now.
Ah, I see. On the one hand here’s a green light and all you need to do is point it out to people. On the other there’s a green light and you’re saying “fuck the system, let’s go 200m down the road where the light is red and cross there”.
Mobilization is the first step. You will not get people to start beating up fascists, who for the past 20 years haven’t been to a single demonstration. Also having millions on the street for a cause puts pressure behind politics to take the more activist protests serious and respond to their demands. Also with the right wing media and propaganda machine it is crucial to have so many people out, that are considered otherwise apolitical or non radical, because the narrative of the right was that they represent the silent majority and that everyone against them is a leftist radical. Now they are struggling with absurd photoshops that the masses were fake.
How many fascists have you attacked?
Or are you just a basement-dwelling keyboard warrior that hasn’t done even the slightest gesture, not even joined a protest like this, against nazis?
STFU.
While I share your sentiment regarding dealing with fascists with violence, there were no fascists to fight at these protests. The protests are in response to fascists growing political power and backroom planning that became public and not against fascists showing up in person. When that happens people do fight them (or try to, the cops protect them).
About 300 people opposed to the mosque broke through police barricades and started punching anti-racism protesters on the steps of the Bendigo Town Hall on Saturday afternoon.
Seems like the Nazis were the one doing the punching. But than again we also have militant antifa in Germany (love those guys) - that’s just not a very effective way of fighting an ideology. People don’t change their believe after getting punched in the face - go figure.
Eh it was pretty even, but yeah they had buses of people and we only found out they were coming on the day so certainly outnumbered and the cops were not helping us that’s for sure.
Maybe, maybe not. In the end the mosque was built and they stopped coming down. The result was all we could ask for.
Oh and mad respect for German Antifa. You guys literally invented it.
It’s important because it takes away the right’s talking point about speaking for the silent majority. This is the majority, and it’s not silent anymore. You can tell that the AfD is already in crisis mode over this. Hopefully we can keep it up until the general election.
I agree that ultimately, force is needed to get rid of fascism. But that doesn’t have to be physical violence, a somewhat functioning democratic system usually also has legislative force that can be used first. The German constitution was written up immediately after the horrors of the nazi regime and WWII. And it offers a lot of tools to fight fascism without physical violence. Political parties can be made illegal for example and individuals can lose their constitutional rights if they use them to destabilize the state. Of course, this won’t get rid of fascists but it may weaken them enough to not be a threat anymore.
People are protesting, among other things, for these tools to be used right now, before it’s too late and before physical violence is the only way out.
I think that’s pretty obvious. Using these powers will literally break up the country since AfD owns Eastern Germany. They should have acted much earlier.
One needs to distinguish between three types of people here: AfD functionaries who draw up deportation plans, definitely fascist, core voters, generally inherited from the NPD, who vote for the AfD because of those deportation plans, definitely fascist, and then protest voters who vote for the AfD despite those plans. Also despite the rest of their programme.
Long story short in Germany the left parties have been captured by (at best) labour aristocracy and neoliberals at worst, their policies led to a severe lack of social housing, an explosion of precarious employment, and it’s not like the labour aristocracy is above agitating against “freeloaders not pulling their weight”. We have a gigantic precariat, many more are afraid of landing there, and a significant portion of that precariat is pissed enough at the establishment to vote AfD because it’s the only party that hasn’t betrayed them so far, or they want to show a middle finger to the other parties, or both, take your pick.
What’s crucial now is that this protest moment is used to actually address those very legitimate grievances of the precariat. To invest in all that good stuff – housing (now with great insulation), public transport so people don’t need to buy expensive electric cars, district heating so people don’t need to buy expensive heat pumps. No land in large cities to build housing on? Expropriate it, doesn’t even need a change to the constitution. Pay for it all with wealth taxes which somehow have been completely cancelled when was it 90s? Suddenly all that anger that the AfD tries to redirect at immigrants will be gone, protest voters can stop voting for Nazis and clean their consciousness, and we’ll all be happy (for the moment).
As you noted states can have tools against fascism and other takeovers themselves. Physical violence can be one of those tools first. Historically seen its the most successful tool. Nothing has made more fascists disappear than deadly force.
Simply taking away their platform and organisations is not enough. This isn’t exclusive to fascism, but political movements in general. They will still remain a danger that way. They would still be a threat to real democracies, if we had any, by still being able to abuse and manipulate the system, swindling their way into power or undermining established constitutions, rights and laws. And in undemocratic systems they still can take over simply by corruption, propaganda or working their way up by more honest means.
It has been a while, but look at how in the 89-91 plenty of governments have been overthrown despite banned oppotisions.
I love the fascist-punching enthusiasm, but a good movement will need diversity of action to get things done. Support the antifascist who beats nazis in brawls, and the antifascist who plans rallies that sing songs and march. Both are valid, and both are important.
I’m an enthusiastic supporter of punching Nazis in the face. One punch and Richard Spencer ceased to be a threat in my country. We always need Nazi punchers. Just violent enough to pierce the veil of invulnerability fascists need but not violent enough to create martyrs for their movement.
“Righteous Violence” is at the core of fascism, but the rest of it is in propaganda techniques. There are many “nice” fascist ambassadors politely wheedling their way into every formal and informal organization of people. They would be much more successful if there was not already a widespread revulsion of fascism throughout almost all countries exposed to it. That revulsion isn’t just passed down, it has to be taught. Gigantic public demonstrations like this are the opposite of moments like this which have been happening in my country since 2016. Huge anti-fascist demonstrations are very important to resist fascism, since they are trying to peddle their ideology as natural and something all people believe and only a few are brave enough to claim. They have to be proven wrong for the kids they otherwise would appeal to.
Kind of obvious how it works isn’t it? You become hateful as you fight evil, and you become more and more accepting of cruelty as long as it’s to the enemy. Happens in wars all the time.
Actually, it does. Since the AFD had more voters in the eastern states of Germany (that was DDR in the past) bigotry against people from eastern Germany have increased again. It was never completely gone, but now you find people openly speculating people from eastern Germany are less intelligent, “inbreds”, etc. And that comes a lot from supposedly anti-fascist leftists.
A lot of people just want violence or don’t like people in general or have something else wrong with them and believe slapping an “anti-fascist” label on their violence somehow makes it good violence. Other ways do work and they are a better choice. Insulting, being cruel and being violent against people should never be your go-to idea and you certainly shouldn’t be trying to shame people into being violent.
Many AFD voters can be turned in better ways, instead of making them fear violence and insults.
You can’t really be this silly. You can’t ethically study this shit, it would need two groups, a control group that doesn’t get desensitized by the horrible things the other group does to people. But you can personally observe the changes in people of places of authority and stress over time. There’s maybe a few studies in the past, like the Stanford one, Milgram I think, that ethicists discourage.
The Stanford prison experiment was faked mate. Guards were told to act cruel and the results were pre-written.
Biological truths such as ‘x causes y in humans’ needs to be backed up by some very serious science, a few choice studies from the 60s barely scratch the surface of that. Because there are a million influencing factors in each and everyone’s life that can drastically change the way we respond to events.
No ofcourse not. But Germany isn’t a nazi regime today like it was back then. It’s “just” one party that has grown the past years. Those protests show that the silent majority won’t let them assume power and that we have learned from history.
Germany has a very strong democratic system and there are a lot of democratic ways of getting rid of such a party in a democratic way. For example it is likely that their funding is beeing stopped, so they have to finance themselves. Additionally it’s highly likely that part of their party is being forbidden. And Germany even talks about forbidding the whole party. That’s something the court has to decide.
Okay but like when are you going to act on it instead of this meaningless shit?
Fascism needs to driven out through violence and force not holding hands and singing kumbaya.
This is the action. It pushes back against fascist talking points in the public discourse and makes it harder for fascist to make themselves seem publicly accepted.
They’re already in your politics, taking votes and planning “deportations”. This is feel-good lib theatre.
And you want to give the state the power to get rid of any group it deems undesirable? Or do you want to break the law to get rid of them yourself? This protest is the sign that the majority will not go along with fascist talking points, it makes clear that those talking points have no space in public discourse. This is how democracy is supposed to work.
The state already has the power to get rid of any group that seeks to destabilize our democratic system. This is a very central part of our constitution (see article 9, 18, 20 or 21). It’s basically a way to deal with the paradox of tolerance, if you’re not familiar with that concept here’s the wikipedia definition:
Ultimately, it is within the law to personally get rid of a group that wants to destroy our free and democratic system:
This is usually interpreted as including physical violence.
That one.
If they get power, they’ll make it legal to do it to you. There won’t be any protests like this going on.
Good luck achieving nothing then.
A dead nazi achieves a lot more than a living one.
I understand your longing for immediate action and I share the emotional need to cut off the snake’s head sooner than later. Those who break the social contract of tolerance for each other should not be protected by it. Unfortunately it is a matter of fact that violence will always spiral out of control. First you just want to get rid of the fascists. Assume you succeed and don’t get reprimanded by law. Then you know how to get rid of someone and can act on it. What stops you to get to your rivals that want to strip you from your new found power? Chances are real you drift off into dictator mannerisms yourself.
The only way to not become what you try to eliminate is not to use excessive violence to begin with. Use the law. Use intimidating mass demonstrations. Use social pressure by making their views unspeakable again. Be better, stand for your values, organize with like minded folk and don’t play into the stereotype of left groups always splittering into incapable small groups that cannot cooperate and coordinate
You assume that murdering people is somehow addictive. That is not true for sane people. See for example soldiers or self defense situations. The other commenter is right that sane people will stop being violent, once the threat is eliminated. Even some absolute psychos will only kill while it’s acceptable and go back to suppress their desire for violence when it no longer is acceptable by their scociety.
At sone point violence may be the only way to defend freedom and democracy. However, I disagree with the other commenter that the time is now.
So how many nazis have you killed? Why so few?
I’m not German?
You mean a martyr for other Nazis to get motivated over?
Great /s
That’s just another Nazi to kill.
What a perfectly fascist way of thinking.
No.
A tolerant society cannot allow intolerance, that’s not fascism.
No need to break the law, it’s in the German constitution:
Ah, I see. On the one hand here’s a green light and all you need to do is point it out to people. On the other there’s a green light and you’re saying “fuck the system, let’s go 200m down the road where the light is red and cross there”.
Mobilization is the first step. You will not get people to start beating up fascists, who for the past 20 years haven’t been to a single demonstration. Also having millions on the street for a cause puts pressure behind politics to take the more activist protests serious and respond to their demands. Also with the right wing media and propaganda machine it is crucial to have so many people out, that are considered otherwise apolitical or non radical, because the narrative of the right was that they represent the silent majority and that everyone against them is a leftist radical. Now they are struggling with absurd photoshops that the masses were fake.
Punching fascists is a moral obligation, but widespread protests against them usually also forces them back into their basement.
Mass protests are nice, because these fuckers get too comfortable otherwise. They often think because they are racist fucks, everyone else is too.
How many fascists have you attacked? Or are you just a basement-dwelling keyboard warrior that hasn’t done even the slightest gesture, not even joined a protest like this, against nazis? STFU.
A few.
Beating your meat does not count.
Hah, funny.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-12/who-was-behind-bendigos-anti-mosque-protests/6848468
When they came to our town, we fought back. You should try it next time, it’s pretty cathartic.
While I share your sentiment regarding dealing with fascists with violence, there were no fascists to fight at these protests. The protests are in response to fascists growing political power and backroom planning that became public and not against fascists showing up in person. When that happens people do fight them (or try to, the cops protect them).
Nothing about it in the article you linked. Maybe you miss clicked or something, try using your right hand.
Oh sorry, I originally had another link but changed it to a more reputable source without checking.
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/fights-break-out-at-bendigo-mosque-protest/62dqgo9v3
And here’s the link I wanted to avoid using but it does offer the better insight despite being a shit company
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/bendigo-mosque-protest-antimosque-and-antiracism-protesters-clash-20150829-gjaml8.html
Seems like the Nazis were the one doing the punching. But than again we also have militant antifa in Germany (love those guys) - that’s just not a very effective way of fighting an ideology. People don’t change their believe after getting punched in the face - go figure.
Eh it was pretty even, but yeah they had buses of people and we only found out they were coming on the day so certainly outnumbered and the cops were not helping us that’s for sure.
Maybe, maybe not. In the end the mosque was built and they stopped coming down. The result was all we could ask for.
Oh and mad respect for German Antifa. You guys literally invented it.
It’s important because it takes away the right’s talking point about speaking for the silent majority. This is the majority, and it’s not silent anymore. You can tell that the AfD is already in crisis mode over this. Hopefully we can keep it up until the general election.
This right here. It’s frightening how quickly many people forget.
Eh, this is logically false. Unless the amount of people is 50% of voters + 1 on that demonstration.
I agree that ultimately, force is needed to get rid of fascism. But that doesn’t have to be physical violence, a somewhat functioning democratic system usually also has legislative force that can be used first. The German constitution was written up immediately after the horrors of the nazi regime and WWII. And it offers a lot of tools to fight fascism without physical violence. Political parties can be made illegal for example and individuals can lose their constitutional rights if they use them to destabilize the state. Of course, this won’t get rid of fascists but it may weaken them enough to not be a threat anymore.
People are protesting, among other things, for these tools to be used right now, before it’s too late and before physical violence is the only way out.
It’s funny how Germany should have those protections and yet the AfD is getting bigger and more popular.
Because the protections that are in place for a very good reason, are not being implemented by those in power. I don’t know why.
I think that’s pretty obvious. Using these powers will literally break up the country since AfD owns Eastern Germany. They should have acted much earlier.
One needs to distinguish between three types of people here: AfD functionaries who draw up deportation plans, definitely fascist, core voters, generally inherited from the NPD, who vote for the AfD because of those deportation plans, definitely fascist, and then protest voters who vote for the AfD despite those plans. Also despite the rest of their programme.
Long story short in Germany the left parties have been captured by (at best) labour aristocracy and neoliberals at worst, their policies led to a severe lack of social housing, an explosion of precarious employment, and it’s not like the labour aristocracy is above agitating against “freeloaders not pulling their weight”. We have a gigantic precariat, many more are afraid of landing there, and a significant portion of that precariat is pissed enough at the establishment to vote AfD because it’s the only party that hasn’t betrayed them so far, or they want to show a middle finger to the other parties, or both, take your pick.
What’s crucial now is that this protest moment is used to actually address those very legitimate grievances of the precariat. To invest in all that good stuff – housing (now with great insulation), public transport so people don’t need to buy expensive electric cars, district heating so people don’t need to buy expensive heat pumps. No land in large cities to build housing on? Expropriate it, doesn’t even need a change to the constitution. Pay for it all with wealth taxes which somehow have been completely cancelled when was it 90s? Suddenly all that anger that the AfD tries to redirect at immigrants will be gone, protest voters can stop voting for Nazis and clean their consciousness, and we’ll all be happy (for the moment).
Physical violence is a necessity.
As you noted states can have tools against fascism and other takeovers themselves. Physical violence can be one of those tools first. Historically seen its the most successful tool. Nothing has made more fascists disappear than deadly force.
Simply taking away their platform and organisations is not enough. This isn’t exclusive to fascism, but political movements in general. They will still remain a danger that way. They would still be a threat to real democracies, if we had any, by still being able to abuse and manipulate the system, swindling their way into power or undermining established constitutions, rights and laws. And in undemocratic systems they still can take over simply by corruption, propaganda or working their way up by more honest means.
It has been a while, but look at how in the 89-91 plenty of governments have been overthrown despite banned oppotisions.
I love the fascist-punching enthusiasm, but a good movement will need diversity of action to get things done. Support the antifascist who beats nazis in brawls, and the antifascist who plans rallies that sing songs and march. Both are valid, and both are important.
They are already protesting for crying out loud. 100,000 protesters isn’t insignificant.
I’m an enthusiastic supporter of punching Nazis in the face. One punch and Richard Spencer ceased to be a threat in my country. We always need Nazi punchers. Just violent enough to pierce the veil of invulnerability fascists need but not violent enough to create martyrs for their movement.
“Righteous Violence” is at the core of fascism, but the rest of it is in propaganda techniques. There are many “nice” fascist ambassadors politely wheedling their way into every formal and informal organization of people. They would be much more successful if there was not already a widespread revulsion of fascism throughout almost all countries exposed to it. That revulsion isn’t just passed down, it has to be taught. Gigantic public demonstrations like this are the opposite of moments like this which have been happening in my country since 2016. Huge anti-fascist demonstrations are very important to resist fascism, since they are trying to peddle their ideology as natural and something all people believe and only a few are brave enough to claim. They have to be proven wrong for the kids they otherwise would appeal to.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
this
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
You become what you fight, very easily, if you are not careful.
Yeah that’s one of those platitudes that sounds nice but is not actually backed up by any science.
Kind of obvious how it works isn’t it? You become hateful as you fight evil, and you become more and more accepting of cruelty as long as it’s to the enemy. Happens in wars all the time.
Like I said it sounds plausible and logical, but that doesn’t actually translate to being true.
Actually, it does. Since the AFD had more voters in the eastern states of Germany (that was DDR in the past) bigotry against people from eastern Germany have increased again. It was never completely gone, but now you find people openly speculating people from eastern Germany are less intelligent, “inbreds”, etc. And that comes a lot from supposedly anti-fascist leftists.
A lot of people just want violence or don’t like people in general or have something else wrong with them and believe slapping an “anti-fascist” label on their violence somehow makes it good violence. Other ways do work and they are a better choice. Insulting, being cruel and being violent against people should never be your go-to idea and you certainly shouldn’t be trying to shame people into being violent.
Many AFD voters can be turned in better ways, instead of making them fear violence and insults.
Philosophy ain’t really a science bud.
Cool so let’s not take it as fact and repeat it like it’s true.
It literally is though.
So give me the science to back it up.
You can’t really be this silly. You can’t ethically study this shit, it would need two groups, a control group that doesn’t get desensitized by the horrible things the other group does to people. But you can personally observe the changes in people of places of authority and stress over time. There’s maybe a few studies in the past, like the Stanford one, Milgram I think, that ethicists discourage.
The Stanford prison experiment was faked mate. Guards were told to act cruel and the results were pre-written.
Biological truths such as ‘x causes y in humans’ needs to be backed up by some very serious science, a few choice studies from the 60s barely scratch the surface of that. Because there are a million influencing factors in each and everyone’s life that can drastically change the way we respond to events.
There is something to be said for shouting them down with song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOO9GsiMb1g
No sure if you proof the right point here…
I don’t remember singing to be the key of freeing France from Nazi-Germany
No ofcourse not. But Germany isn’t a nazi regime today like it was back then. It’s “just” one party that has grown the past years. Those protests show that the silent majority won’t let them assume power and that we have learned from history.
Germany has a very strong democratic system and there are a lot of democratic ways of getting rid of such a party in a democratic way. For example it is likely that their funding is beeing stopped, so they have to finance themselves. Additionally it’s highly likely that part of their party is being forbidden. And Germany even talks about forbidding the whole party. That’s something the court has to decide.
If we omit all the steps which aren’t key, we likely fail at key steps. Some steps are important support.
Giving the people a way to show themselves what their spirit is is important to encourage further steps.
In that sense, I do think keeping up morale was important in freeing France.
I guess you’d have to watch the whole movie to get the message.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=kOO9GsiMb1g
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.