Two things:
- Russia is using cluster munitions
- Russia started the war
Yes but the people who suffer the most with these weapons is the civilians.
Just because they are already being used, doesn’t mean more should be used.
Agree. Russia is guilty of using cluster munitions, and they started the war. They need to stop on both counts.
@Dazza So, leave the war in Ukraine lop-sided so we can absolutely ensure that the majority of those killed are Ukrainian civilians instead of Ukrainian civilians AND Russian soldiers? What kind of sense does that make?
I see your point but There’s no clear answer here.
The article raises a valid point that Cambodia has extensive history from these weapons spilling over from the Vietnam war and causing civilian fatalities way after the war ended.
My point here is that just because a war crime(s) is committed one the Russian side, that doesn’t give free reign to the Ukraine side to do the same.
@Dazza There are legitimate concerns about using cluster munitions but Ukraine is well aware of the problems they create. And unlike a 3rd world country like Vietnam, they will be better suited to mitigate those threats post-war. In the meantime, none of this matters if they lose because Russia will kill half of them anyway after the war.
I think Vietnam and Ukraine are both 2nd world actually? idgi honestly
Russia will kill half of them anyway after the war.
Why? What sense does that make? When has there ever been any reason to believe that the goal is to kill Ukranians? This isn’t even the first time I’ve seen it said that if Russia wins (or even loses!) they’ll just wipe out all Ukranians afterwards. And neither time has there been any reasoning for why such an absurd claim should be believed.
If you truly believe this drivel, you’re doing everyone a disservice by not attempting to justify your claims. If you truly believe it and provide justification, you might just convince others to believe what you do.
And in the meantime Russia will have more time to drop even more cluster bombs
What’s worse, 8000 Russian and 2000 Ukrainian (US)? Or 12000 Russian? (Made up numbers to illustrate a point I haven’t seen made yet)
What are these numbers? Lives lost? Bombs dropped?
- Not a reason to fuck up Ukraine for the 100 years
- Not a reason to fuck up Ukraine for the 100 years
Russia should be held accountable in both cases.
For me the difference is using cluster munitions in defense of your country. It’s not by choice, it’s by necessity. Like most nuclear powers will use nuclear weapons in existential defense. Rightfully in my opinion.
I’d like to think that Ukraine could do better than Russia…
But then I guess they’re getting the cluster munitions from the US, so maybe not?
do i understand correctly that you are implying ukraine, a country attempting to frame itself as a modern developed democracy, should base its policies on those of russia
You think most modern developed democracys wouldn’t busy these kind of weapons out if they were being attacked by them? It just helps that most modern developed democracys haven’t faced being invaded since WW2.
im unaware of the specific part of thr CCM that says ‘unless we get attacked’, and marking something as a warcrime usually doesnt come with the caveat ‘unless there is a war’
i also like to think that bombing several voters for every enemy combatant wouldnt sell all that well to said voters
im kidding of course, what with a third of the casualties of cluster bombs being children
kids cant vote whether theyre alive or a red chunky smear
We wouldn’t even be providing these weapons if they hadn’t been attacked first?
im glad that your second favourite option, after modeling foreign policy and military tactics on those of russia, is modeling it after third graders
if a third of the folks youre killing being children is just the price youre willing to pay at least grow a spine and say so instead of pretending that russia is making you resort to shamelessly partaking in borderline warcrimes instead of using any other weapon
- Ukraine has already been using cluster munitions, they’re just running out
- The US cluster munitions would have a much lower dud rate than either the Ukrainian or Russian cluster bombs
Whether or not you agree with the US sending them more cluster weapons, they’re already on use. The Cambodian PM seems completely uninformed if he thinks this is an escalation.
“Warcrimes are okay when the other side does them too.”
Russia is using cluster munitions
Ukraine on the other hand has been using cluster munitions against civilians for quite a while now:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-cluster-munitions
From your link:
Ukrainian forces have used cluster munitions that caused deaths and serious injuries to civilians. Russian forces have extensively used cluster munitions, causing many civilian deaths and serious injuries.
Your interpretation of what the Pentagon said does not match the quote. They are very careful: they cannot definitively conclude that the video includes the uses of cluster munitions. That’s not to say that the video doesn’t show cluster munitions or that Russia isn’t using them elsewhere.
The second link does conclude that Russia has used cluster munitions. That is with the benefit of over a year to gather evidence.
Here is Pentagon again as of July 6, 2023: Brigadier General Pat Ryder: “I would note that the Russians have already been employing cluster munitions on the battlefield, many with very – which included very high dud rate reportedly.”
Also cluster munitions used by Russia
I wouldn’t be surprised if both sides have been using them.
Know what else will be dangerous for potentially 100 years, maybe longer? Letting Russia win/hold territory. Like, folks, it’s war. The front is already riddled with mines, many in strange places because of the dam wash out.
Is this crappy and dangerous for civilians? Yes. But come on, Russian occupiers are literally committing genocide and mining the shit out of stuff right now. At least if cluster munitions help end this war then the cleanup can begin and things can start to get less dangerous.
“At least if nuclear bombs help end this war…”
Just no.
Especially because these things will be used on Ukrainian soil. So it will be Ukranian people who will have to deal with the fallout for years/decades to come.
Nuclear bombs are very different than cluster munitions.
The Russians are already mining-remining Ukranian soil, creating an unexploded ordinance issued for generations. In fact, Russian is also using cluster munitions, so the problem with them specifically already exists.
Similar cautions/implications/unfortunate consequences for mines will be needed for unexploded cluster munitions, so this will need to be dealt with regardless of if Ukraine uses them.
The elected leaders of Ukraine have made the tactical choice to do this, have weighed the trade-offs, and convinced an inittialy-hesitant America to ship weapons. Who are you/the world to interfere with their sovereign decisions on their own land, with consequences largely confined to their own land?
If you are an American/Ukranian and oppose your country providing/receiving these munitions, contact your representatives.
I’m from neither country. I am however from one of the 100+ countries that has banned the use of cluster bombs for over a decade.
In my country, there’s still people dying from unexploded bombs leftovet from world war 1.
From an article on why cluster bombs are so controversial
Sixty percent of cluster bomb casualties are people injured while undertaking everyday activities, according to Reuters. One third of all recorded cluster munitions casualties are children.
So yes, while I keep being staunchly on the side of Ukraine and NATO helping them, this is not something I like to see.
They are looking at short term benefits, understandably. I may be naive, but still believe they can drive the Russians out with more conventional weapons. The fact that they seemingly don’t think so is actually worrying.
I’m actually really confused. This is the United States we’re talking about. They have a military budget greater than, what, the next 10 largest combined? They couldn’t figure out how to use a type of weapon that wouldn’t cause an international incident and draw condemnation from their closest allies?
By this logic literally anything is justified if it stops Russia.
Shortsighted.
Did the US commit a genocide when they invaded Afghanistan?
Well yeah but we don’t talk about that.
We just talk about the genocides committed by the baddies.
Is there any legitimacy to the claims that the Ukrainians want to disassemble these munitions to use as drone bombs? I suppose time will tell and no assurances have been made that this is the case.
I, as a prominent couch strategist, would think it’s more probable that they’re gonna use them as they are, to make offensive actions against dug in enemy more effective. They have apparently been experiencing problems in that area.
I wonder if the failure rates quoted by the bbc article are correct. They claim that US cluster bombs have a dud rate of 2.5% whereas the Russian munitions have 30-40% duds. That seems a bit … propagandish.
Imagine 1/3rd of the shells you fire at the enemy didn’t do anything. This was woulda been over a long time ago
It’s referring to cluster munitions specifically, not all of them.
this problem matters a lot less if youre dropping dozens of the things at a time
Given the way that Russian made weapons seem to work I’d agree that the dud rate is probably not what’s described. It’s probably closer to 5% US did rate and 60% for Russian made garbage. I mean, I remember the start of the war when they had videos all over of cluster munitions that were unexploded.
If there’s one thing the US values it’s value-per-dollar, and dud bombs not working would be bad business.
Also, to the OPs question about using them to make drone bombs. They would be crazy to do that. Especially when the battlefield as it’s described talks about trenches with mines on top making it difficult to run Bradley’s and Challengers over. My guess is they’ll use the cluster munitions to carpet an area, detonate any mines underground and clear out trenches, and then push forward through the newly opened line.
The big advantage of these weapons for Ukraine is that they can be fired directly from the western -suupplied Howitzers and HIMARS they already have without needing modification. Ukraine’s problem is that they are running out of shells. Cluster munitions go further since they are area weapons.
No, Ukraine already has been using cluster munitions against civilians for a long time:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-cluster-munitions
